tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post116365422582982010..comments2023-10-30T06:01:02.889-04:00Comments on don't call me Veronica: who needs church? - part 1tonymyleshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11396458619687708153noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165614040019358512006-12-08T16:40:00.000-05:002006-12-08T16:40:00.000-05:00Keep going on this one, Tony!I would concur your t...Keep going on this one, Tony!<BR/><BR/>I would concur your thoughts about Larry's situation. If I may parallel, pain-learning has a lot to do with Faith, not pain-management (unless that is solely what one is looking to do in life, manage pain).<BR/><BR/>Paul writes using terms of Vital Connection. We are part of the Family of God, the People of God. If I am child of God and there are others, then I'm connected to them. But then Paul uses Plato's 'body' analogy and even amplifies it. I NEED you.<BR/><BR/>Observation: people are equating "being in the Body" with showing up at the meeting time (Sunday morning). We know, eventually, that's not true.<BR/> -- But the consequence often taken is to drop the meeting time. Not an option in Vital Relationships -- that goes the wrong direction.<BR/><BR/>Redirect: two (very related) issues that I would love to see through Tony Myles Eyes. (1) Freedom of Choice allows for No-Choice [better, choice of "no"] and (2) Has mobility ruined community?<BR/><BR/>David<BR/>Phoenix, ArizonaDavid Malouf --https://www.blogger.com/profile/13756209137101502564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165611655315064872006-12-08T16:00:00.000-05:002006-12-08T16:00:00.000-05:00Larry -Thanks for your transparency and willingnes...Larry -<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your transparency and willingness to wrestle over this. I'd love to respond to your thoughts, but give me some time to add them to something I'm working on in part 3 of this. <BR/><BR/>One quick though, though... I hear you that pain isn't something to aspire to, but I would contend there are lessons we learn from pain that pain-free living doesn't allow. Sometimes we just really learn what's most important in life versus the things we pursue... which is maybe why we labor on earth to one day reach heaven. I know that I see life better when I have those around me who can catch my blind spots better than I can alone. Sometimes those are most recognized by people who happen to drive me crazy (which, perhaps if I was honest, is why they drive me crazy in the first place).tonymyleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11396458619687708153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165602897894595122006-12-08T13:34:00.000-05:002006-12-08T13:34:00.000-05:00I'm one of those who has given up on going to chur...I'm one of those who has given up on going to church. The experience usually just ends up adding more burdens to a soul already laboring to follow Jesus.<BR/><BR/>I still have a church of sorts. A community of friends. a Weblog Fellowship, informal things like that.<BR/><BR/>I expect change in this. If I extrapolate the track of my walk with Jesus into the future, it's easy to believe that my path will eventually intersect that of an organized group of believers. We will all change in the encounter.<BR/><BR/>Why not now? I'm too much of a bottom-feeder, and don't allow myself to feel part of anything. When a group does accept me I tend to back away. Automatic defenses that God is working on through my informal groups of friends.<BR/><BR/>In other words... walk with Jesus and don't mind how strange your path might look to others. God is the master weaver of life-tracks.<BR/><BR/>Tony, I do strongly disagree with your implied notion of "necessary pain." I think our world would be better off if no one ever got "torn to shreds." No one learns from that experience except how to keep it from happening again. Being hurt is inevitable. It doesn't need to be sought or even informally encouraged. God can heal these wounds, if one allows Him to do so. This requires some idea that God actually cares, which is hard to accept when organized groups allow membership only to those who follow the right rules in the right way.Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08516546812702049831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165599914949249002006-12-08T12:45:00.000-05:002006-12-08T12:45:00.000-05:00A huge echo to the comments on ministering to sing...A huge echo to the comments on ministering to singles. They are overlooked. They even make people uncomfortable sometimes. There is seldom a place for them. And they have SO much to offer!<BR/><BR/>And we need to remember that singles aren't just people in their 20's and early 30's who want to get married. They include 50 year-olds and the divorced and the widowed. Most of them just want to belong. And if they can't belong to the church, where CAN they belong??<BR/><BR/>On another note, I too find irony in some peoples' comments about the church. I know some people who feel that they are IN Christ but not a part of the church. I'm not quite sure how that works.Thurman8erhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04956136117525355145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165593177821965492006-12-08T10:52:00.000-05:002006-12-08T10:52:00.000-05:00Great post!My husband and I have been "church sear...Great post!<BR/>My husband and I have been "church searching" for a few months. Before that, I don't think I ever let myself belong the church we went to. I feel the loss. I know the difference in my life. Bono sang, with or without you. This could be applied to the body of believers.Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11470283761189392205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165550693583265122006-12-07T23:04:00.000-05:002006-12-07T23:04:00.000-05:00There is one thing I find ironic about the poeple ...There is one thing I find ironic about the poeple who I've spoken with that are frustrated with the church (or have left the church altogether.) <BR/><BR/><I>Many simply refuse to be an agent of change.</I><BR/><BR/>They are content to sit back and complain about the church, but there are far too many who refuse to invest the time into changing it into what God wants it to be.<BR/><BR/>I wish you all the best with your upcoming senior pastorship. Thank you for this post.stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14760765831975016535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165540921031897822006-12-07T20:22:00.000-05:002006-12-07T20:22:00.000-05:00Tony, I have a feeling you will find a creative wa...Tony, I have a feeling you will find a creative way to introduce some diversity. Please be sure to acknowledge the singles too!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165530154055129052006-12-07T17:22:00.000-05:002006-12-07T17:22:00.000-05:00I sometimes want to give up on church, but not the...I sometimes want to give up on church, but not the Church, not the bride of Christ. It is just that so many groups becomes so inclusive and self serving that they don't even resemble the bride that Christ described us as being.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes it is hard to find that community that you can fit into AND that truly is about the Father's business....sometimes it is too easy to "just show up"...I think he wants a little more from me.Donna Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01591270068580850954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165529435693863492006-12-07T17:10:00.000-05:002006-12-07T17:10:00.000-05:00Sorry,I'm the anonymous author of the above.D-Fres...Sorry,<BR/>I'm the anonymous author of the above.<BR/>D-FreshAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165527936986476212006-12-07T16:45:00.000-05:002006-12-07T16:45:00.000-05:00yup to it all. It's too bad that sometimes church...yup to it all. <BR/><BR/>It's too bad that sometimes churches and denominations can function in ways that hinder the Church. For many of my friends, that's the big "loophole" as you put it. They also say that it doesn't take a corporation with a tax-free status and programs to have community and be THE body.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165526737378542992006-12-07T16:25:00.000-05:002006-12-07T16:25:00.000-05:00barbara... You raise an interesting point. Someti...barbara... You raise an interesting point. Sometimes the problem is that we are not like the community we are trying to graft ourselves into. All the more reason why when we're enjoying our community as a church we need to keep making room at the table... and adding more tables as needed. The problem becomes when the things that draw us together (i.e. the commonality of parenting or marriage, for instance) don't negate the diversity that the body is supposed to hold.<BR/><BR/>A personal example... if I am correct in that the church I'm about to go to is in a predominantly white community, then I need to figure out what it looks like for us to expose ourselves to new social environments and racial diversity. Not to have a token outreach program, but because if we don't look outside of ourselves we start inbreeding. As the old wive's tale goes, that leads to mixed up "kids."tonymyleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11396458619687708153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165522362068337562006-12-07T15:12:00.000-05:002006-12-07T15:12:00.000-05:00Good stuff... nuff saidGood stuff... nuff saidAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165513159706076582006-12-07T12:39:00.000-05:002006-12-07T12:39:00.000-05:00Tony, thanks for writing about this. I have been ...Tony, thanks for writing about this. I have been hurt by "a church" but still believe in "The Church" even though I don't go anymore.<BR/><BR/>I have a meeting with my pastor next week to discuss this very topic. For me, not going is not so much because I don't like it, or find things wrong with it, its a huge FEAR and PANIC every time I walk in. I think for a single woman that goes to a church that is all couples, I am kind of invisible. But that's another issue...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165512833723905162006-12-07T12:33:00.000-05:002006-12-07T12:33:00.000-05:00I had a friend once describe "the church" as the c...I had a friend once describe "the church" as the community that sustains you. He compared it to an ember outside of a fire that may burn for awhile but eventually grows cold, while an ember within/among others is sustained.<BR/><BR/>Another friend of mine - he was around 70 y.o. when he shared this - told me so much of being the church is about "just showing up". He said there were so many times in his life he just wanted to stay home - but then he might miss an opportunity to be used by God....or create a vacuum where God wanted to use another person to speak to him.<BR/><BR/>The communities that God has guided me to have certainly sustained me - through times of joy and suffering.<BR/><BR/>I like your phrase "redemptively reclaiming". There is a lot to that short little phrase.David Mosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13961784834051398113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15733794.post-1165511634121679082006-12-07T12:13:00.000-05:002006-12-07T12:13:00.000-05:00Great post Tony. I for one love the Church. Has ...Great post Tony. I for one love the Church. Has it always been good to me? No. I have come to realize though that I need the Church and the Church needs me. <BR/><BR/>It hurts me as I'm sure it hurts God to hear people say they do not like the Church. As we know the Church is also called the bride of Christ. When someone says something disparaging about my bride it hurts me because I love her and am one with her. When someone says something disparaging about Christ's bride, it must hurt.<BR/><BR/>May we as the Church live in such a way that others are drawn to us and our bridegroom.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com